Legislation

S.5 veto override vote set for this week

Photo credit FriendsVermontStateHouse.org

By Guy Page

The attempted veto override of S.5, the so-called Affordable Heating Act, will take place in the Vermont House later this week, a spokesperson for the Speaker of the House said today.

VDC called the Speaker’s Office at 10 AM this morning. The respondent said the House will do a full day’s work beginning at 1 pm today, but that the S.5 override won’t happen until later this week – which day, she couldn’t specify. 

An S.5 veto vote is on today’s Senate calendar. That agenda item was passed over during this morning’s session.

Last week, State House scuttlebut had the S.5 veto override vote happening in a separate session on June 20-22. But when Gov. Scott issued his official veto late last week, House and Senate leaders instead decided on a prompt override vote. 

S.5 in effect taxes fossil fuel heating oil consumption and spends the tax/fee revenue on subsidies for weatherization and electric-powered heat, including heat pumps. Supporters say it will reduce carbon emissions and make heating prices more stable, because electricity rates are regulated by the State. 

Opponents say it will do little to reduce global carbon emissions but will jack up the cost of heating homes with both fossil fuels and electricity, in a way that most of the burden will fall on the lower-and-middle income homeowners living in older, rural houses. They also say that the labor force lacks enough workers to weatherize and retrofit Vermont homes.

Gov. Scott vetoed S.5 because the supposed ‘check back’ provision – intended to delay any action for two years while a thorough study of economic and environmental impacts is conducted – is confusing and contradictory and won’t, in practice, stop early implementation.

Vermont legislators may be contacted about S.5, or any other legislation, on their legislative email addresses:

House of Representatives

MemberDistrictTown(s)/cityPartyCommitteeDistrict
Representative Julia AndrewsChittenden-25Milton, WestfordDemocratWays and Meansjandrews@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Joseph AndrianoAddison-RutlandShoreham, Orwell etc.DemocratHealth Carejandriano@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Peter AnthonyWashington-3Barre CityDemocratWays and Meanspanthony@leg.state.vt.us
Representative John ArrisonWindsor-2WeathersfieldDemocratCorrections and Institutionsjarrison@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Angela ArsenaultChittenden-2WillistonDemocratJudiciaryaarsenault@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Sarah “Sarita” AustinChittenden-19ColchesterDemocratEducationsaustin@leg.state.vt.us
Representative John L. BartholomewWindsor-1Hartland/W. WindsorDemocratTransportationjbartholomew@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Ashley BartleyFranklin-1Georgia/ FairfaxRepublicanGeneral and Housingabartley@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Scott BeckCaledonia-EssexSt. Johnsbury/KirbyRepublicanWays and Meanssbeck@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Daisy BerbecoChittenden-21WinooskiDemocratHealth Caredberbeco@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Matthew BirongAddison-3Vergennes, et al.DemocratGov Operations and Military Affairsmbirong@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Alyssa BlackChittenden-24EssexDemocratHealth Careablack@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Tiffany BluemleChittenden-13BurlingtonDemocratAppropriationstbluemle@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Seth BongartzBennington-4ManchesterDemocratEnvironment and Energysbongartz@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Michelle Bos-LunWindham-3WestminsterDemocratCorrections and Institutionsmboslun@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Lucy BoydenLamoille-3CambridgeDemocratGov Operations and Military Affairslboyden@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Erin BradyChittenden-2WillistonDemocratEducationebrady@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Carolyn BranaganFranklin-1Georgia/ FairfaxRepublicanWays and Meanscbranagan@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Patrick BrennanChittenden-19ColchesterRepublicanAppropriationspbrennan@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Jana BrownChittenden-1RichmondDemocratEducationjbrown@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Nelson BrownellBennington-1PownalDemocratEducationnbrownell@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Jessica BrumstedChittenden-7ShelburneDemocratHuman Servicesjbrumsted@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Thomas BurdittRutland-2RutlandRepublicanJudiciarytburditt@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Mollie S. BurkeWindham-8BrattleboroProg/DemTransportationmburke@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Elizabeth BurrowsWindsor-1West WindsorDem/ProgGeneral and Housingeburrows@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Tesha BussWindsor-5WoodstockDemocratEducationtbuss@leg.state.vt.us
Representative R. Scott CampbellCaledonia-EssexSt. JohnsburyDemocratTransportationscampbell@leg.state.vt.us
Representative William CanfieldRutland-10Fair HavenRepublicanWays and Meanswcanfield@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Jim CarrollBennington-5Bennington/ PownalDemocratCommerce and Economic Dev.jcarroll@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Conor CaseyWashington-4MontpelierDemocratCorrections and Institutionsccasey@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Ela ChapinWashington-5E. MontpelierDemocratJudiciaryechapin@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Heather ChaseWindsor-WindhamChesterDemocratCommerce and Economic Dev.hchase@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Seth ChaseChittenden-20ColchesterDemocratGov Operations and Military Affairsschase@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Robin Chesnut-TangermanRutland-BenningtonPawlet/ WellsDemocratGeneral and Housingrchesnut-tangerman@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kevin “Coach” ChristieWindsor-6HartfordDemocratJudiciarykchristie@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Brian CinaChittenden-15BurlingtonProg/DemHealth Carebcina@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Paul CliffordRutland-4RutlandRepublicanEnvironment and Energypclifford@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Sara CoffeyWindham-1GuilfordDemocratTransportationscoffey@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Esme ColeWindsor-6HartfordDemocratAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestryecole@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Peter ConlonAddison-2CornwallDemocratEducationpconlon@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Timothy R. Corcoran IIBennington-2BenningtonDemocratTransportationtcorcoran@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Mari CordesAddison-4LincolnDemocratHealth Caremcordes@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Penny DemarFranklin-7EnosburgRepublicanHealth Careademar@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Carl DemrowOrange-1Corinth, et al.DemocratWays and Meanscdemrow@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Eileen DickinsonFranklin-2St. Albans TownRepublicanAppropriationsedickinson@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Leonora DodgeChittenden-23EssexDemocratTransportationldodge@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Karen DolanChittenden-22EssexDemocratJudiciarykndolan@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Katherine “Kari” DolanWashington-2WaitsfieldDemocratAppropriationskdolan@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Anne B. DonahueWashington-1NorthfieldRepublicanHuman Servicesadonahue@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kate DonnallyLamoille-2Hyde Park, et al.
Democrat
Judiciarykdonnally@leg.state.vt.us
Representative David DurfeeBennington-3ShaftsburyDemocratAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestryddurfee@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Caleb ElderAddison-4StarksboroDemocratGeneral and Housingcelder@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Alice M. EmmonsWindsor-3SpringfieldDemocratCorrections and Institutionsaemmons@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Bobby Farlice-RubioCaledonia-1Barnet/ WaterfordDemocratHealth Carebfarlice-rubio@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Gina GalfettiWashington-OrangeBarre/ WilliamstownRepublicanCorrections and Institutionsggalfetti@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Rey GarofanoChittenden-23EssexDemocratHuman Servicesrgarofano@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Leslie GoldmanWindham-3RockinghamDemocratHealth Carelgoldman@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kenneth GoslantWashington-1NorthfieldRepublicanJudiciarykgoslant@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Rodney GrahamOrange-3WilliamstownRepublicanAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestryrgraham@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Edye GraningChittenden-3Jericho/ UnderhillDemocratCommerce and Economic Dev.egraning@leg.state.vt.us
Representative James GregoireFranklin-6FairfieldRepublicanHuman Servicesjgregoire@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Lisa HangoFranklin-5BerkshireRepublicanGov Operations, Military AffairsLHango@leg.state.vt.us
Representative James HarrisonRutland-11ChittendenRepublicanAppropriationsjharrison@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Troy HeadrickChittenden-15BurlingtonProg/DemCorrections and Institutionstheadrick@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Mark HigleyOrleans-LamoilleLowellRepublicanGov Operations, Military Affairsmhigley@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Rebecca HolcombeWindsor-Orange-2Norwich, et al.DemocratAppropriationsrholcombe@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Philip Jay HooperOrange-Washington-AddisonBerlinDemocratGov Operations, Military AffairsJHooper@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Robert HooperChittenden-18BurlingtonDemocratGov Operations, Military Affairsrhooper@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Lori HoughtonChittenden-22Essex Jct.DemocratHealth CareLHoughton@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Mary E. HowardRutland-6RutlandDemocratGeneral and HousingMHoward@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Noah HymanChittenden-8S. Burlington/ WillistonDemocratHuman Servicesnhyman@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kathleen JamesBennington-4Manchester CenterDemocratGeneral and Housingkjames@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Stephanie JeromeRutland-9BrandonDemocratCommerce and Economic Dev.sjerome@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Emilie KornheiserWindham-7BrattleboroDemocratWays and Meansekornheiser@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Emilie KrasnowChittenden-9S. BurlingtonDemocratGeneral and Housingekrasnow@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Jill KrowinskiChittenden-16BurlingtonDemocratRulesjkrowinski@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Larry LaborEssex-OrleansMorganRepublicanGeneral and Housingllabor@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Dennis LaBountyCaledonia-3Lyndon, et al.DemocratGeneral and Housingdlabounty@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kate LalleyChittenden-6ShelburneDemocratTransportationklalley@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Martin LaLondeChittenden-12S. BurlingtonDemocratJudiciarymlalonde@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Saudia LaMontLamoille-WashingtonStowe/ MorristownDemocratGeneral and HousingSLamont@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Diane LanpherAddison-3VergennesDemocratAppropriationsdlanpher@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Wayne LarocheFranklin-5FranklinRepublicanCorrections and Institutionswlaroche@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Josie LeavittGrand Isle-ChittendenGrand IsleDemocratAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestryjleavitt@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Jed LipskyLamoille-1StoweIndependentAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestryjlipsky@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kate LoganChittenden-16BurlingtonProg/DemEnvironment and Energyklogan@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Emily LongWindham-5NewfaneDemocratRuleselong@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Eric MaguireRutland-5Rutland CityRepublicanCorrections and Institutionsemaguire@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Michael MarcotteOrleans-LamoilleCoventryRepublicanCommerce and Economic Dev.mmarcotte@leg.state.vt.us
Representative James MaslandWindsor-Orange-2ThetfordDemocratWays and Meansjmasland@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Christopher MattosChittenden-FranklinMiltonRepublicanWays and Meanscmattos@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kate McCannWashington-4MontpelierDemocratEducationkmccann@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Michael McCarthyFranklin-3St. AlbansDemocratGov Operations, Military Affairsmmccarthy@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Patricia McCoyRutland-1PultneyRepublicanTransportationpmccoy@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Francis McFaunWashington-OrangeBarre TownRepublicanHealth Carefmcfaun@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Jubilee McGillAddison-5Middlebury, et al.DemocratHuman Servicesjmcgill@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Marc MihalyWashington-6Calais/ MarshfieldDemocratAppropriationsmmihaly@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Brian MinierChittenden-11S. BurlingtonDemocratEducationbminier@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Michael MorganGrand Isle-ChittendenW. MiltonRepublicanGov Operations, Military Affairsmmorgan@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kristi MorrisWindsor-3SpringfieldDemocratEnvironment and Energykmorris2@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Mary A. MorrisseyBennington-5BenningtonRepublicanCorrections and Institutionsmmorrissey@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Michael MrowickiWindham-4PutneyDemocratGov Operations, Military Affairsmmrowicki@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Emma Mulvaney-StanakChittenden-17BurlingtonProg/DemCommerce, Economic Devemulvaneystanak@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Logan NicollRutland-WindsorLudlowDemocratCommerce and Economic Devlnicoll@leg.state.vt.us
Representative William NotteRutland-7Rutland CityDemocratJudiciarywnotte@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Daniel NoyesLamoille-2WolcottDemocratHuman ServicesDNoyes@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kate NugentChittenden-10S. BurlingtonDemocratGov Operations, Military Affairsknugent@leg.state.vt.us
Representative John O’BrienWindsor-Orange-1TunbridgeDemocratAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestryjobrien@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Carol OdeChittenden-18BurlingtonDemocratWays and MeansCOde@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Thomas OliverFranklin-4Swanton/ SheldonRepub/DemJudiciarytoliver@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Woodman PageOrleans-2NewportRepublicanAppropriationswpage@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kelly PajalaWindham-Windsor-BenningtonLondonderry, et al.IndependentHuman Serviceskpajala@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Joseph ParsonsOrange-CaledoniaNewburyRepublicanGeneral and Housingjparsons@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Avram PattLamoille-WashingtonStowe/ MorristownDemocratEnivironment and Energyapatt@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Henry PearlCaledonia-WashingtonDanvilleDemocratAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestryhpearl@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Arthur PetersonRutland-2ClarendonRepublicanHuman Servicesapeterson@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Phil PouechChittenden-4HinesburgDemocratTransportationppouech@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Monique PriestleyOrange-2Bradford, et al.DemocratCommerce and Economic Devmpriestley@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Barbara RachelsonChittenden-14BurlingtonDemocratJudiciarybrachelson@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Mike RiceBennington-RutlandDorset, et al.DemocratAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestrymrice@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Tristan RobertsWindham-6Wilmington, et al.DemocratCorrections and Institutionstroberts@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Jarrod SammisRutland-3CastletonRepublicanCommerce and Economic Devjsammis@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Larry SatcowitzOrange-Washington-AddisonRandolphDemocratEnvironment and Energylsatcowitz@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Robin ScheuAddison-1MiddleburyDemocratAppropriationsRScheu@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Charles “Butch” ShawRutland-8PittsfordRepublicanTransportationbshaw@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Amy SheldonAddison-1MiddleburyDemocratEnvironment and Energyasheldon@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Laura SibiliaWindham-2DoverIndependentEnvironment and Energylsibilia@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Katherine SimsOrleans-4CraftsburyDemocratWays and Meansksims@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Taylor SmallChittenden-21WinooskiProg/DemHuman Servicestsmall@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Brian SmithOrleans-1DerbyRepublicanEnvironment and EnergyBSmith@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Trevor SquirrellChittenden-3UnderhillDemocratAppropriationsTSquirrell@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Gabrielle StebbinsChittenden-13BurlingtonDemocratEnvironment and Energygstebbins@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Thomas StevensWashington-ChittendenWaterburyDemocratGeneral and Housingtstevens@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Mary-Katherine StoneChittenden-14BurlingtonDem/ProgEducationmstone@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Heather SurprenantWindsor-4BarnardProg/DemAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestryhsurprenant@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Chris TaylorChittenden-FranklinMiltonRepublicanEducationcataylor@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Curt TaylorChittenden-20ColchesterDemocratWays and MeansCTaylor@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Dave TemplemanOrleans-3BrowningtonDemocratAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestrydtempleman@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Tristan TolenoWindham-9BrattleboroDemocratAppropriationsttoleno@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Casey ToofFranklin-8St. Albans TownRepublicanEducation/ Rulesctoof@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Dara TorreWashington-2WaitsfieldDemocratEnvironment and Energydtorre@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Joseph “Chip” TroianoCaledonia-2StannardDemocratCorrections and Institutionsctroiano@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Matt WalkerFranklin-4SwantonRepublicanTransportationmwalker@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Chea Waters EvansChittenden-5Hinesburg/ CharlotteDemocratGov Operations, Military Affairscevans@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Kirk WhiteWindsor-AddisonBethelDem/ProgCommerce and Economic Devkwhite@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Dane WhitmanBennington-2BenningtonDemocratHuman Servicesdwhitman@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Jonathan WilliamsWashington-3BarreDemocratCommerce and Economic Devjwilliams@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Terri Lynn WilliamsEssex-CaledoniaGranbyRepublicanEducationtwilliams@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Charles WilsonCaledonia-3Lyndon, et al.RepublicanAgriculture, Food Resiliency, Forestrycwilson@leg.state.vt.us
Representative Theresa WoodWashington-ChittendenWaterburyDemocratHuman Servicestwood@leg.state.vt.us
Senate
Senator Philip BaruthChittenden-CentralBurlingtonDem/ProgAppropriations/ Judiciary/ Rulespbaruth@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Christopher BrayAddison DistrictNew HavenDemocratFinance/ Natural Resources and Energycbray@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Randy BrockFranklinSt. AlbansRepublicanEconomic Dev., Housing and General Affairs/ Finance/ Rulesrbrock@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Brian CampionBenningtonBenningtonDemocratAgriculture/ Educationbcampion@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Thomas ChittendenChittenden-SoutheastS. BurlingtonDemocratFinance/ Transportationtchittenden@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Alison ClarksonWindsorWoodstockDemocratEconomic Dev., Housing and General Affairs/ Rules/ Gov. OperationsAClarkson@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Brian CollamoreRutlandRutlandRepublicanAgriculture/ Institutionsbcollamore@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Ann CummingsWashingtonMontpelierDemocratEconomic Dev., Housing and General Affairs/ Financeacummings@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Martine GulickChittenden-CentralBurlingtonDemocratEducation/ Health and Welfaremgulick@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Ruth HardyAddisonEast MiddleburyDemocratGov. Operations/ Health and Welfarerhardy@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Wendy HarrisonWindhamBrattleboroDemocratEconomic Dev., Housing and General Affairs/ Institutionswharrison@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Nader HashimWindhamDummerstonDemocratEducation/ Judiciarynhashim@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Russ IngallsEssexNewportRepublicanInstitutions/ Transportationringalls@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Jane KitchelCaledoniaDanvilleDemocratAppropriations/ Transportationjkitchel@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Virginia “Ginny” LyonsChittenden-SoutheastWillistonDemocratAppropriations/ Health and Welfarevlyons@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Mark A. MacDonaldOrangeWilliamstownDemocratFinance/ Natural Resources and Energymmacdonald@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Dick MazzaGrand IsleColchesterDemocratInstitutions/ Transportation/ Rulesdmazza@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Dick McCormackWindsorBethelDemocratFinance/ Natural Resources and Energyrmccormack@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Robert NorrisFranklinSheldonRepublicanGov. Operations/ Judiciaryrnorris@leg.state.vt.us
Senator andrew PerchlikWashingtonMontpelierDemProgAppropriations/ Transportation/ Rulesaperchlik@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Kesha Ram HinsdaleChittenden-SoutheastBurlingtonDemocratEconomic Dev, Housing and General Affairs/ Financekramhinsdale@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Dick Sears Jr.BenningtonN. BenningtonDemocratAppropriations/ Judiciaryrsears@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Robert StarrOrleansN. TroyDemocratAgriculture/ Appropriationsrstarr@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Tanya VyhovskyChittenden-CentralEssexProg/DemGovernment Operations/ Judiciarytvyhovsky@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Anne WatsonWashingtonMontpelierDem/ProgGov. Operations/ Natural Resources and Energyawatson@leg.state.vt.us
Senator David WeeksRutlandProctorRepublicanEducation/ Health and Welfaredweeks@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Richard WestmanLamoilleCambridgeRepublicanAgriculture/ Appropriationsrwestman@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Rebecca WhiteWindsorHartfordDemocratGov. Operations/ Natural Resources and Energyrwhite@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Terry WilliamsRutlandPoultneyRepublicanEducation/ Health and Welfaretwilliams@leg.state.vt.us
Senator Irene WrennerChittenden-NorthEssexDemocratAgriculture/ Institutionsiwrenner@leg.state.vt.us

Categories: Legislation

2 replies »

  1. OK, So the tax/fee on fossil fuels will go to buy credits and assist with weatherization what about the millions of dollars that it will cost to set up and maintain this system? Where is that money coming from? Out of the general fund? Will it be an add on to government expenses or taken from an existing account?

  2. The legislature can’t afford to let the public really know what’s in the bill and the more time the public has to read Gov Scott’s letter the more uncertain they are they can exert the force they need over their members. Of course the Republicans/Gov Scott have mishandled the PR of this whole legislative session. There should have been coordinated opposition and every exposed and amplified. Robert Roper and Guy Page can’t do it all themselves.