By Guy Page
Ever since state and federal government began to mandate Covid-19 vaccination upon pain of job loss, Vermonters have been wondering whatever happened to the ‘your health care is between you and your doctor’ mantra repeated by legal abortion advocates.
One such prominent Vermont advocate is Attorney General TJ Donovan, who is joining with other state AGs to protest the Texas and South Carolina abortion heartbeat laws. What does he think about the legality of vaccine mandates?
On yesterday’s Morning Drive call-in talk show, Donovan was expounded on the legal sanctity of Roe V. Wade when a caller interrupted with this question:
“Can you please square Roe V. Wade, ‘my body, my choice,’ don’t have the government tell me what to do, with the whole Covid vaccine mandate of ‘just shut up and get it, or you’re going to lose your job’?”
Long pause…..
“Women have the Constitutional right to have abortions,” Donovan declared. “That’s a Constitutional Right. We’re going to defend that right.”
Then Donovan embarked on a rambling, disjointed discourse. While it’s hard to follow the circuitous thread of reasoning, it seems that not all absolute rights to bodily privacy are created equal. You can hear it at the 40:14 mark on wdev.com or on the audio file below
Mercifully, the buffer music cut in. Donovan was saved by the hard stop of the hourly news break.
Categories: Life&Death
Because pregnancy isn’t contagious.
However, I’m still one of countless people who realize that civil liberties are under grave threat from all of this.
Shut down freedoms anytime a new deadly virus comes along? End history as we know it?
Yes, pregnancy isn’t contagious. The compelling state interest in herd immunity doesn’t apply in the realm of abortion. But the even more important difference is that a fetus, while possessing life as a matter of biology, lives in the womb, the last extant example of what the Enlightenment philosophers called a “state of nature,” which chronologically precedes the development of governments and the protections they offer citizens. Entrance into the social contract, which promises government protections, comes when the state issues a certificate of live birth and records the birth in its vital records. This is in keeping with Scripture, which says quite clearly that human life begins with the first breath. “Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person.” (Gen. 2:7). You can try to claim a fetus is a “living person,” but that doesn’t square with Biblical teaching or with historic government practice in the timing of its first official recognition of an individual.
Dave, your scripture defense of abortion up until the the moment of birth is disingenuous at best. Genesis is clearly referring to Adam and Adam only. What about ‘I am fearfully and wonderfully made’ about God, the author of life, knitting the baby together in the womb, and knowing the baby before it is born? What about John leaping for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when the pregnant Mary met her? Dave, if you want to believe that abortion is OK, that is up to you, but don’t say it’s scriptural. It’s not.
Where in the Constitution Mr. Donovan? You will defend that right, but not the rights of others who wish to remain free from medical tyranny? It appears the left have boxed themselves into a bad arguments – my body, my choice? Depends according to these utter fools. They made the same mess of #MeToo – Biden, Clinton, Cuomo – they got away with sexusal assaults and are celebrated by their useful idiots.
This is for JT, whose post didn’t provide a reply button:
If someone has imparted to him or her “the breath of life” and becomes “a living person,” that seems pretty clear to me.” Can you cite for us the verse in Genesis that makes clear that this, in your words, “is referring to Adam and Adam only”?
Psalma 139: 13-14, whence comes the phrase “I have been fearfully and wonderfully made” speaks of God knitting’s David together in his mother’s womb. Picture a craftsperson in his or her shop, building a chair from parts made in previous days. It’s not a chair until the parts are assembled and the final polish is applied. It’s not, Genisis tells us, “a living person” until it receives the final touch, the “breath of life.”
Fetuses frequently move about in the womb, and when Elizabeth, in Luke 1: 39-45, is ecstatic to see her cousin Mary, who is pregnant with Jesus, it’s no surprise that the fetus that will grow to be John the Baptist displays movement in the uterus of an equally pregnant Elizabeth. The timing of this fetal movement when Mary visits either is no big deal, just a common occurrence in pregnancy, especially when the mother is excited, or it portends the birth of Jesus, in which case it’s a miracle. If it is a miracle, it is far less replicable in others than Adam gaining life and personhood by breathing.
Mr. Dave Gram,
Genesis 1 speaks to the beginning of human life on earth; when GOD created human kind in HIS Image (men and women). After that GOD said “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.” From then on human beings were created within the womb of women.
Look at Psalm 139
On the subject of abortion:
Are we understanding you to say a baby in a mother’s womb is only considered a life once the cord is cut and it’s breathing independently from the mother?
When do you believe the soul of a human being is formed?
vtbeliever, A soul is formed over the course of a lifetime; I’m 65 and mine is still being shaped today. The soul first becomes imbued with God’s grace at baptism. Can you tell me of any faiths that baptize a child before it is born?
JT tells us that the line about the breath of life applies to “Adam and Adam only.” Can you or he say where in the scripture it says that’s the case? I would also cite some evidence even non-believers can see for the notion that breath is key to life: We see from drownings, suffocations and Covid that no one lives long without breathing.
Hello David Gram,
How do you KNOW “a soul is formed over the course of a lifetime?” Do you have evidence?
What does baptism have to do with a human life in the womb of a mother? Some babies/people don’t believe in baptism so, when does their “soul first become imbued?’
Hello again vtbeliever,
My thought about development of the soul stems from my personal experience. I’d be surprised if you were to tell me your soul has not developed since you were in the womb as you have embarked and continued on your own spiritual journey.
I don’t doubt that a fetus possesses life at least in a biological, Aristotelian sense. But as I mentioned previously, it is living in the “state of nature” described by Locke, Hobbes and other Enlightenment philosophers, and such a state is outside the social contract and government protection.
When does this status change? When government first recognizes the existence of an individual by issuing a birth certificate. This occurs after the individual has taken her or his first “breath of life,” to borrow a phrase. I mentioned baptism only to note that faiths which perform these rituals shortly after birth also seem to recognize that an important milestone has been reached; they do not baptize babies in utero.
So when does a human life begin? I look for clues, rather than making unsupported pronouncements about “the murder of children in the womb.” I look at the fact that murder is a matter of law (this is why a police officer can kill someone and not be charged with it), and civil law of the sort you want to use to punish women who get abortions does not exist in a state of nature. I look at what Genesis says about when life begins – at the first breath, and at the fact that you don’t live after breathing stops. I look at the facts that babies are not baptized in the womb, nor do they get birth certificates. These are tacit but longstanding acknowledgments of when life begins, and, when taken alongside Genesis, create a resonance that has lasted through the ages and which I consider worthy of great respect.
Hello Dave Gram,
It sounds like our foundational Beliefs are probably different, so we have different meanings and arrive at different conclusions. What you seem to call the development of your “soul,” I would say is the development of a person’s character.
I Believe the Bible is GOD’S WORD. I Believe GOD when HE says HE knows each of us very intricately. I Believe the soul and life of a human being exists and is known by GOD at the time of conception.
I disagree that a life starts with breath. I don’t Believe that’s what GOD says in the Bible. Genesis 1 speaks to the beginning of human life on earth; when GOD created human kind in HIS Image (men and women). After that GOD said “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.” From then on human beings were created and born in the womb of a women.
I agree that murder is a matter of Law, but let’s remember where that Law originated. It was taken from GOD’S WORD, specifically one of the Ten Commandments. GOD gives great value to human life as HE creates every human being in HIS Image. That’s why he condemns murder.
Since a father/man has to be involved for a women to be pregnant, does he have any rights to the human life he fathered? Why is it seen as “A women’s right to choose” or it’s a “Woman’s body so it’s a woman’s choice?”
Why do you see a pregnant women who doesn’t want to be pregnant as a victim? The overwhelming majority of pregnancies happen as the result of a woman choosing to participate in the action that creates life/pregnancy? How is that a victim?
Since you believe life starts at first breath, people can then choose to murder a full term, 9 month pregnancy just before a birth. Do you think that’s protecting the innocent?
Do you know the word “fetus” is the Latin word equivalent to the English word for “baby?” Why is a human being in the womb a “fetus” when someone doesn’t want to be pregnant and a “baby” when they do want to be pregnant?
Have you seen a high definition sonogram of a baby in a mother’s womb?
Donovan lacks the polish needed to be a Vermont liberal politician, but he’s working on it. He had some stumbles today on WVMT, but Marcus Certa helped Donovan thru. Obviously Attorney General is a stepping stone to his real goals, as evidenced by his lack of thorough understanding of the issues surrounding biden’s vaccine mandate. Several steps behind is not the place to be on such a contentious and controversial subject, especially for the top law enforcement officer in Vermont. He also appeared somewhat lost about how to deal with habitual offenders, such as Burlington is dealing with now. His inability to convey forthright answers to just these two issues, and rely on talking points and platitudes may sound good to some, but it’s a far reach to say he’s capable of this or higher office. He may be up to speed on his recent lawsuit of major oil suppliers and the attempt to coerce money from them, but he fails the test on real concerns of Vermont voters.
Mr Donovan, Spoiler Alert: Abortion “rights”, per the Supreme Court ruling in Roe v Wade were found in the 14th Amendment. It was the 1973 Supreme Court’s broad interpretation, not actual words written in the Constitution that legalized abortion. This same amendment could well be interpreted to deny biden’s vaccine mandate.
TJ Donovan sites the Constitution when it meets his agenda and he ignores it when it doesn’t.
Example:
Recently, the VERMONT LEGISLATURE PASSED A BILL ALLOWING NON – CITIZENS TO VOTE. Both the Vermont State and US Constitutions state that a person has to be 18 years of age and a US Citizen to be able to vote.
Did our Vermont Attorney General, TJ Donovan speak out and site the Constitution in that instance? NO, HE DID NOT. He allowed the Supreme Law of Vermont, It’s Constitution, to be Usurped by VERMONT STATE LAWMAKERS. Why is TJ Donovan siting the Constitution now? Does he really value and believe in our State and US Constitutions?
If TJ Donovan really does BELIEVE THAT OUR CONSTITUTIONS MATTER, he should take some time with an open mind and heart and reread them. Then, he should defend them vigorously as his elected position requires. He took an oath to do so when he was elected.
He is VERY MISTAKEN to state there is a RIGHT TO MURDER UNBORN HUMAN CHILDREN IN EITHER OF THE CONSTITUTIONS. The TRUTH IS THE OPPOSITE. We are called to defend LIFE AND LIBERTY. A BEATING HUMAN HEART IS LIFE.
I’m sure those who drafted our founding documents never imagined they would see a time when ELECTED OFFICIALS AND OTHER HUMAN BEINGS would fight for the RIGHT TO MURDER THERE OWN UNBORN CHILDREN.
Again, I challenge TJ Donovan, his wife, Phil Scott, Molly Burke and Jim Condos to have the courage to purposely seek to view a 4D Sonogram of a BABY IN A MOTHER’S WOMB. If you do, you’ll witness a growing BABY WITH A BEAT.ING HEART.
That’s what you call “liberal hypocrisy.” Abortion on demand, just infanticide, but it’s the woman’s body, but dare question Covid vax, our bodies, and you are a knuckle dragger.
The issue of abortion is both complex and difficult. That said, TJ Donovan should not refer to the US Constitution when dealing with the issue of abortion as there is nothing in the US Constitution that deals with abortion, let alone a woman’s absolute right to terminate a pregnancy. Society and/or the Supreme Court will struggle with this issue, but no one, let alone a State Attorney General, should declare the US Constitution provides absolute guidance on the matter…. for it most certainly does not.
I respectfully disagree with you Mr. Silverstein.
Making a decision to murder a human life is not complex or difficult. Let’s be honest and call abortion what it really is presently: legally convenient murder.
Our society overall is very confused on this matter and it shows in our erratic mindsets and behaviors. If a woman is pregnant and the life is wanted everyone is happy, they celebrate and welcome the baby. If a woman is pregnant and the life is not wanted it’s a problem, an inconvenience and a blob of tissue to get rid of. If someone murders a pregnant woman, they are often charged with two murders, but if a woman wants an abortion, that murder is fine and legal.
What are we saying about the value of a human life? Do those who fathered a life have any rights? Have you viewed the newest science that shows a 4D Sonogram of a growing, developing baby? What are we teaching and modeling to our children and grandchildren?
Many young people are seeing the double standard. They are waking up and advocating for the protection of human life.
bj donavan is from the elitist Leddy tribe of dem lawyers. bj donavan is a useful idiot of the left. His marxist comments on WVMT are despicable as is his support of boornie mittens sanders.
In listening to Donovan’s various interviews several times In the recent past, he is often incoherent, rambling and unversed on topics that should be second nature. As a politician, he makes a lousy lawyer.
He’d be smart not to run for Governor.
Wow– The mental gymnastics needed to provide this sort of gibberish can only come from an attorney cornered by the hobgoblins of rampant hypocrisy. I haven’t heard this much tap–dancing since that frog cartoon in Warner Bro.’s “One Froggy Evening” & talk about saved by the bell! TJ’s trying to justify shoving an ineffective, barely tested “mRNA Vaccine” into OUR bodies for a virus w/a 99.7% survival rate? THIS is all about POWER,”theirs” vs. “ours”, never forget it, and his stammering, rambling attempt to justify the unjustifiable is as ludicrous as his argument he’s pulling straight out of his butt. BTW TJ, why not focus on treatments and mention the 27X benefits of natural immunity from/by the 100+ Million Americans who have HAD the virus? And where’s the vaccine development specifically for the “Delta” variant? Look at the numbers, under Trump’s time in office we lost 300,000, from Feb. 2020 to Jan. 2021 with NO vaccine until Nov. 2020 and under Biden where we’ve lost another 300,000 from Jan. until now WITH the vaccines? This virus will do what ALL virus’s do, burn out eventually, it’s just too bad that WE (Fauci/NIH) paid the Commie Chinese to loose this one upon the world, the worst wounds are always self-inflicted.