Commentary

Connelly: Covid response not about personal rights

By Ross Connelly

Discussion and debate about whether to wear or not wear a mask as a means to halt the spread of Covid-19 is traveling around Vermont like a wildfire, or, perhaps better said, like a virus.

The matter comes up frequently at the governor’s weekly press conferences. Selectboards up and down the state, from Hardwick to Morristown, Stowe, Charlotte, Brattleboro and Bennington are grappling with the issue.

The governor and many others say mandating masks in public spaces and indoors would be unenforceable, counterproductive and divisive.

If masks were required at a select board meeting, a city council or even the governor’s press conferences, a person who refused to wear one would be disrupting the public meeting and could be asked to leave. If they refused, they could be removed. And that says nothing about common sense.

I’m sure many a parent has had arguments — dare I say divisive arguments — with their children about bedtime, eating the food on their plate, being home by a certain time, focusing on homework rather than a television show, and other matters.

Not everyone agrees seatbelts are needed. Not everyone believes vaccinating children for contagious diseases is a good idea. Not everyone believes it is wrong, and illegal, to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

At times, disagreement — dare I say divisiveness — saves lives.

Divisiveness is part of life. That’s not the issue.

The issue is public health and the common good. More than 812,000 people in the United States have died from Covid-19 — that’s almost 30 percent more than Vermont’s entire population. Millions have been stricken by the virus, millions more around the world have been sickened and died. Covid-19 is contagious. Covid-19 is deadly.

The people of any town, the state, the nation, the world need to wear masks. The people need to get vaccinated and boosted. People need to take this virus seriously to stop serious illness and, yes, more death.

Curtailing Covid-19 is not a matter of “personal rights.” The adage that one person’s rights end where another person’s nose begins seems most appropriate in this time of need. According to the scientists and medical professionals, the Covid-19 virus passes easily between the eyes, mouth — and the nose — when inhaling and exhaling.

Covid-19 is a public health crisis and the public needs to act if the disease is to be controlled.

That’s not divisive. That’s reality.

The author is the former editor and publisher of the Hardwick Gazette.

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64 replies »

  1. There is a crisis surrounding the China virus; it’s an information crisis. A major non governmental agency and the nations’ top paid doctor have been inconsistent with advice and statistics regarding that virus. American values of truth and justice require a fair and balanced look at available data from multiple sources. Newspaper editors ought to be held to a high standard.

  2. Come on man! If you don’t see the division caused by mask (and vaccine) mandates, remove your cloth talisman for a moment, breath some fresh, Green Mountain oxygen and look around you.

    If we thought for a moment that wearing a mask would save lives, we’d be all over it. It won’t. Like the common cold, everyone has either had COVID already, or they will get it. Even Scott and Levine are admitting its endemicity now – a full 22 months after many of us predicted it.

    If you choose to wear a mask, please be my guest. This is America, and while I think it looks pretty silly on you, I shall not infringe your right to look that way (although I reserve the right to chuckle uncontrollably.)

    • If “everyone” gets it, it will be people like you that could care less about your own or other people’s health that make that inevitable.

      Correct masks (N95 or P100) worn correctly work.

      https://www.mpg.de/17916867/coronavirus-masks-risk-protection

      (The accompanying very short video makes it very easy to understand.)
      ——————
      The vaccines are almost completely ineffective. (And potentially very dangerous, like playing Russian Roulette.)

      But masks at least help.

      And they are NONINVASIVE, unlike the vaccines.

      • Good morning Tim,

        I hope you are well. Please review my initial post to this discussion, under the name, CJ, as according to the VT Dept of Health’s, Dr. Mark Levine, mask wearing in public places, like the grocery store, does not stop the spread of COVID-19, as these places are low transmission environments. According to Dr. Levine, most transmission occurs in households, amongst family.

        I also provide a Swiss website with many links to various, international resources, including the National Institutes of Health, which painstakingly analyzes the most recent data, including the N95 mask, which is not generally worn by the public.

        After extensive review, the Conclusion is that there is no substantial evidence that masks stop the spread of COVID-19. As I stated in my original post masks do have a negative impact on health if worn long-term, as the general public had been doing.

        Last year, I reviewed a scientific paper published by a neurologist. The study found that young children can suffer from cognitive impairment, as their brains require a certain level of oxygen to develop properly, which masks impede. The neurologist stated that the damage will not be immediately evident, and will take years to present. I sent this scientific paper to the Superintendent of the Essex Westford School District, Beth Cobb, who dismissed it and advised me to contact the Governor’s Office.

        More recently, I reviewed a second research study that came to the same conclusion. The residents of this state deserve to be properly informed about the scientific pros and cons of mask wearing. Anyone with children should be deeply concerned.

      • How has Dr. Mark Levine helped the state of Vermont one iota?

        He was deadly wrong on the vaccines.

        If he says masks won’t help I personally am inclined to mistrust what he says as he has been nothing but an abject failure in leading this state through the pandemic.

        If he doesn’t understand that the vaccines have COMPLETELY failed to stop the spread or even get us one day closer to the end of this pandemic, then he seemingly can’t see the nose in front of his face.

        He must be brainwashed by big pharm.

        Same goes for Pharma Phil.
        ——————

        Here’s 49 studies that show masks work:

        https://www.kxan.com/news/coronavirus/do-face-masks-work-here-are-49-scientific-studies-that-explain-why-they-do/

        ——————

        Decades of experience in the medical profession led to the consensus that one very important tool in stopping the spread of an airborne communicable disease is to wear masks.

        No Dr. or nurse that I’ve ever heard of has had health problems because they have to wear a mask all day.

        Same with people who work in labs.

        ——————

        Masks are one of the only halfway effective measures one has to protect themselves AND OTHERS. (Should
        one happen to be infectious.)
        (Other than distancing/isolating.)

        The vaccines don’t do diddly to stop one from getting infected and giving it to others.

      • Thank you for sending the resources, I am more than happy to review them. Maybe, the important takeaway in our discussion is that there is a lot of science to consider. The difficult part is knowing the correct science to follow.

      • ‘“The difficult part is knowing the correct science to follow.”

        Especially in this country, during this pandemic.

        The USA propaganda/misinformation/division machine is the strongest in the world.

        “Maybe, the important takeaway in our discussion is that there is a lot of science to consider.”

        Agreed.

        Best wishes,

        TT

  3. Thank you for your opinion. I on the other hand have the opposite opinion, I do not hide behind false data that Governor Scott is spewing every day! He makes up his own “facts” to suit his own personal needs. This virus is just that, a virus. Yes, many people have died, and many have contracted it, but the survival rate is so blatantly low compared to other viruses/illnesses, and the so called vaccine are not real vaccines. Why is there no legal ramifications on the Pharmaceutical companies for all of the deaths and adverse reactions that have occurred? Why have so many “vaccinated”people died? Keep drinking the kool-aid!!

  4. Mr. Connelly – With due respect, your remarks are evidence of an arrogant attitude suggesting those that oppose your views are somehow ignorant of the facts and incapable of critical thinking and research. While the so-called mainstream media and government ignore or worse attempt to suppress other valid viewpoints, those other viewpoints can be discovered and must be considered and not ignored. For starters I suggest you check out this link to an article about Dr. Ben Carson’s viewpoint published today in Epoch Times, “Pandemic Could be Solved Quickly if Politics Thrown Out”; https://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_morningbrief/pandemic-could-be-solved-quickly-if-politics-thrown-out-dr-ben-carson_4161315.html?utm_source=Morningbrief&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=mb-2021-12-17&mktids=e0b681a9ea46f28cd3563657c937b4de&est=nSgKKP7LyyF4rFxcz1%2FCxjQ6vWm1T8i5NbH%2BnI3CayhAZ45xe6i0xDqiYg6895JylpQoSnA%3D.

    Second, I suggest that on January 14 and 15, 2021 you attend the “Faith, Health and Hope Global COVID Summit” sponsored by Vermont Grassroots, Vtgrassroots.com.

    God bless you.

    • Excellent statement by Dr. Carson. Why is his opinion not mainstream? Why are previously esteemed scientist and doctors, some even with Noble prizes, ignored? People who up until 2019 were considered some of the finest brains in the land? Did they suddenly get stupid? Or did they dare to question the “All Panic, All the Time” narrative? What a puzzle….

      I also find it disingenuous of the Vermont leadership that I cannot find the AGES of the hospitalized Covid patients. Last I checked, a few days ago, there were 77 people in the hospital and 19 in the ICU “with” Covid. Overwhelmed with the unvaccinated? 19 people? Really? Why is the Gov trying to stir up panic over 19 people?

      And how old are these patients, I wonder? Why is that data hidden? The Gov says they are “mostly” unvaxxed. Why is that data not public, then? We know that elderly people are the most likely by far to end up in the ICU with COVID, and we also know that in Vermont, the elderly are overwhelmingly vaccinated. (99% with at least one shot.) So, what sort of elderly person in Vermont would not be vaccinated? Most likely one that was already too sick (cancer? immune disorder? dementia?) to get the shots. When the Gov blames the “5% who aren’t vaccinated,” is he blaming these old, frail, people? Is he blaming the children? (Only 35% vaxxed.) Who is he blaming exactly? The 35 year old nurse who already had Covid because he kept working all this time? Who exactly is he blaming?

      • Exactly. Good questions. By the way, we’re you aware of the event scheduled for Montpelier on January 15?

  5. Mr. Connelly,

    I respectfully disagree with everything you’ve said. Let me explain why.

    First of all, it’s doubtful that some 800,000 people have actually died from Covid, rather than with Covid. Most of those deaths are in the elderly with co-morbitities who’ve likely died with, rather than from, Covid. But, this is a small quibble.

    My biggest argument is that you’re accepting the dominant narrative which I, and many others, believe is completely false. The narrative goes like this: no repurposed drugs used for early treatment are helpful in stopping Covid-19; vaccines are the only way out of this pandemic; if vaccines aren’t stopping the pandemic then we need to be “all in this together” and mask up for our safety.

    The entire narrative falls apart because the first part of this narrative is completely false. Early treatment exists, and it works. Early treatment has been deliberately suppressed because it’s safe, it works, it’s cheap, and ending the pandemic early means ending huge profits for the pharmaceutical industry and for our health officials (such as Tony Fauci) who actually have agreements wherein they profit from shared patents.

    I have documentation on early treatment to back up my assertions. The first type of documentation is found on the FLCCC website. The FLCCC is a group of ICU physicians who treat serious Covid cases and have developed a protocol for effective treatment using drugs with a time-tested record for safety. https://covid19criticalcare.com/ More documentation comes in the form of work done in Uttar Pradesh, the largest state in India with a population 2/3 that of the US, which actually used the drugs recommended by the FLCCC group and stopped Covid-19. https://tv.gab.com/channel/triplecrown777/embed/dr-lenny-da-costa-of-goa-61256ced73f177cc4ef5fc2f In addition there’s another physician group promoting early treatment of Covid-19 using safe drugs already on the market: https://earlycovidcare.org/ Finally I’ll link to a recent commentary by Dr. Cory, a member of the FLCCC group, that explains the broad outlines of what’s happening today in terms of censorship of medical professionals who are standing up for the truth: https://thefederalist.com/2021/12/16/studies-proving-generic-drugs-can-fight-covid-are-being-suppressed/

    Regarding that “vaccines are the only way out,” I refer you to this presentation that demonstrates that the real efficacy shown in the Pfizer vaccine trial was less than 1%, not 95%, and that the trial actually demonstrated that the vaccines did nothing to prevent all-cause mortality, which is the true measure of efficacy and safety. https://www.canadiancovidcarealliance.org/media-resources/the-pfizer-inoculations-for-covid-19-more-harm-than-good-2/

    Regarding masks, the science is very much up-in-the-air regarding these and we have to remember that the good doctor Fauci– and public health officials everywhere– told us that masks don’t work for the general public, before they changed their minds and told us they did. But obviously we have a problem: highly vaccinated, still transmitting, still getting sick, still going to the hospital, still dying, and there’s simply no good evidence anywhere that masks make much of a difference. See Sweden. So what would a sane policy look like, to stop transmission of Covid-19, when we see that what we’re doing isn’t working? Perhaps we should try what Uttar Pradesh tried, and with great success? Perhaps we should stop censoring fully qualified doctors from prescribing perfectly safe medications that they, and many others, say are effective in stopping Covid-19? Perhaps we should stop purging the medical system of educated doctors and nurses who refuse to take the vaccines, and instead of censoring them, maybe we should ask them what, in light of all their education and experience, makes them hesitant to take the vaccines? Or are we afraid we might learn something?

    Demonizing the “unclean”: Hitler did that, too. So I’ll end with a song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4G-19QB1Us

  6. I would like to respectfully address your argument for universal mask wearing, which is based on the assumption that masks prevent the transmission of COVID-19. This talking point is political and not based on substantial scientific evidence. I am including a link to a Swiss website, as a politically neutral source for your review and consideration.

    https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/

    In conclusion, the findings state that there is currently little to no evidence that supports the effectiveness of mask wearing in reducing COVID-19 infections.

    Dr. Mark Levine appears to support this claim. In a recent letter from the Burn Academy to student families, Mark Tashjian, Headmaster, related a recent conversation he had with Dr. Mark Levine via a Zoom call.

    Dr. Levine stated that mask mandates “would likely have minimal impact for a number of reasons:” I am paraphrasing 3 his stated reasons.

    1) People do not wear masks at home. This is where the majority of the spread is occuring.

    2) Few people are infected while at the grocery store or other places, as these places are low transmission environments.

    3) Given the strong protection vaccines provide, the benefit of mask wearing is relatively low.

    Given the information I have provided, there is no legitimate scientific reason for universal mask wearing, nor is there any benefit to public health. Mask wearing does come with serious health risks and should be considered based on each individual’s risk/benefit analysis.

  7. Mr. Connelly’s thoughts and opinions unfortunately do not consider fact.
    While masks may be a reassuring signal of safety to some, the efficacy of masks are as he states, subject to debate. Masks may indeed capture spray from a sneeze of cough, but are incapable of containing SARS-COV-2 virus, as the virus is smaller than the mask’s porosity. For every pro-mask study, there is a study showing the ineffectiveness and risks of masking. For those that are looking for a panacea, masks ain’t it.
    Re-hashing the “vaccine” debate really is counter productive, even as more information and data become available regarding efficacy and risk. That forced vaccination of an experimental genetic therapy- of decreasing effectiveness, especially into children- is even considered by governments is a huge step toward totalitarian government.
    If Mr. Connelly could produce evidence and fact to support his argument, beside invoking the cliche’ “personal rights” and “common good”, I’m all ears.
    This is not a pandemic of anything more than politics and money. With the manipulation of fear, SARS-CoV-2 has been used from it’s discovery as a political tool, to manipulate national elections, enrich certain groups and entrench political ideologies in America. Believing government can solve our problems, we have acquiesced logic and reason to tyrants and megalomaniacs, allowing these people to dictate terms under the guise of ending this scourge.
    The information exists and is available to enable individuals and families to make decisions regarding their health and healthcare. Articles here, on VDC are a starting point. Despite feverish attempt to block and censor information contrary to the government narrative- it can be easily found. It’s up to us to make the effort.
    Mr. Connelly’s thoughts represent the narrative insisted upon by current government leaders, in spite of other evidence available. It is disconcerting just how many people will not, or are unaware of anything but the propaganda offered by government and the media.
    As the truth come out, do not ask us how we knew. Ask yourself why you didn’t.

  8. Dear Mr. Ross Connelly,

    I strongly disagree with your view. Our Government is a Constitutional Republic. Our Individual State Constitutions and United States Constitution are the Supreme and Foundational Law of our Country and States. Our Rights and Freedoms are not given to us by governments or other human beings. They preceded governments as they come from our GOD and CREATOR.

    The President and All others elected to positions in the State and Federal Governments take an oath and “solemnly swear to faithfully execute their offices and preserve, protect and defend the Constitution(s).” Governments are instituted to protect our Rights and Freedoms.

    Some of our Rights and Freedoms are laid out in the US Bill of Rights. A specific example is: Amendment I. This Amendment speaks to our Rights to the Freedom of Speech, Freedom to Assemble and our Freedom to Practice Religion. It further states that “Congress shall make no Law or prohibit the free exercise thereof.”

    Another example is Article 14 in our US Bill of Rights. It says, “No State may make or enforce any Law which diminishes the Privileges or Freedoms of Citizens of the United States. No State may take away any person’s Life, Liberty, or Property without proper operation of Law.”

    Our Constitution(s), Rights and Freedoms are not suspended because a President, Governor or other elected or non-elected expert ignores the Constitution(s) and declares edict(s) or mandate(s).

    You and others can try and justify that Unconstitutional actions are needed due to the emergency “health situation.” The Covid situation is exactly an example of why no human beings are given the authority in the Constitution to make the decision to suspend ANY OR ALL OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL, GOD GIVEN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.

    We are very Blessed in the United States of America with an Extraordinary and Exceptional, Constitution that lays out the formula for Equal Freedom and Equal Justice for ALL Individuals. We need to read it, study it, claim it, make our elected officials accountable to it, and cherish it.

    I would also ask you Why?
    You Claim Freedom To Kill Freedom, and Yet Keep Freedom for Yourself

    • Our dear “leaders” have used the Constitution as toilet paper for the last 2 centuries.

      Unfortunately, those beautiful words you quoted didn’t apply to anyone other than white males when they were written.

      As far as the government’s actions go, they don’t apply to anybody.

      • Dear Tim T,

        Will you please elaborate on your statement that the words in our United States Constitution “didn’t apply to anyone other than white males when they were written.”

      • The Declaration of Independence states “all men are created equal.”

        There are reasons it didn’t say “all humans are created equal.”

        Our founding fathers, who were just faulty men themselves, didn’t believe all humans are created equal.

        “All men” didn’t apply to Native Americans, slaves/African Americans, or women.

        In the Constitution itself southern slave owners were given 1/3 of a vote based on each slave, yet the slaves weren’t allowed to vote.
        The Constitution didn’t give women the right to vote.

        What happened in the first 100 years after the Constitution was written?

        Slavery exploded, Native American GENOCIDE took place, and when did women get to vote? (Hint, they certainly weren’t considered “equal” when the Constitution was written.)

        The original Constitution only gave white men “rights.”

      • Dear Tim T,

        I’m really sorry to hear your very sad perspective on our United States Constitution. It’s unfortunate, but many share your same negative view. Schools have stopped teaching the facts about this very important Foundational Document that Forms our Free Constitutional Republic.

        Your perspective doesn’t reflect “the times” or the “correct contexts of circumstances” from back in that time. If you are open to understand, you’ll have to seek out and read the “real history” about the debates, conversations and disagreements that took place among those who were working out the details of our United States Constitution.

        We are all flawed, imperfect human beings living in a fallen world. If we are honest, any one of us could make a long list of our own imperfections, regrets and mistakes. If we have the right mind/heart attitude, we will learn the most from our mistakes and make the necessary apologies, adjustments and changes.

        Our Founding Fathers were also imperfect and flawed human beings. They struggled and debated over subjects like slavery and they didn’t get it right in the beginning. They knew there would be changes/additions in the future. That is why they laid out the processes to add amendments and make changes. Since then, many additions/corrections have been made.

        I believe humans owning other humans is evil. There are many wrong and evil situations that still exist in the world today. Some men and some women choose to be evil. We still have slavery today of all colors and races. Women are still seen as property in many places around the world. Sex slavery is prevalent in the United States and many other places. Many children are victims of abuse and pedophilia. This is all part of our fallen world.

        If you choose to have a negative view and only focus on the mistakes or what was left out of the original Constitution, you’ll miss All the Good, the Beauty and the Exceptionalism of the Document. You’ll miss the Foundational Structure and Formula that truly gives Equal Freedom and Equal Justice to ALL Individuals IF IT IS ADHERED TO AND UPHELD.

        I would challenge you to read the United States Constitution again for the first time with a new attitude and way of thinking. When/If you do, I hope you will see where your Inalienable, Individual Rights and Genuine Freedom come from.

        It is our Duty as United States Citizens to Hold Our Elected Officials Accountable to our UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION Which They Each Took an Oath to Uphold.

        LOOK AT THE PRESENT CONDITION OF OUR UNITES STATES OF AMERICA BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT BEING FOLLOWED!

      • I’m not negative, I try to be neutral-positive.

        This includes accepting reality as it is and was, without accepting other’s lies or making up lies and accepting them from myself.

        This is not to say that I get reality right all the time, I just try to actually see reality the best I can.

        ——————-

        Reality is slaves didn’t get rights under the original implementation of the Constitution.

        The Native Americans did not receive the right to “Life, Liberty, and Property.

        Women did not receive full rights, obviously, which is why they had to go through “suffrage” to gain the right to vote.

        (You’re right about the Founding Fathers being imperfect fallible men.)

        ——————

        In the early years of our country the Constitution never meant what in modern times we’ve been taught it meant back then.

        ——————

        Nowadays, the Constitution doesn’t really mean anything.

        Our dear “leaders” live under a lawless system where they make up the rules as they go.

        The plebes live under a different, much more harsh justice system.

        Where are we now?

        Forcing MANDATES to get injected with an experimental technology.

        In the face of overwhelming evidence of the ineffectiveness and the dangers.

        —————-

        The country wasn’t “FREE” for all from the beginning.

        It still isn’t.

        ——————-

        I don’t know how to share the truth without sounding negative.

      • Tim,

        You are correct about the interpretation of the Constitution, but was that the original intent of the language. Or was this language a heard of it’s time, a destination, a goal to be achieved by a young and inexperienced people? I agree many battles were fought to live up to that ideal. The biggest and bloodiest being the Civil War. No one claims that America is or ever was perfect, we are an imperfect people and an imperfect nation, as are many others.

        With regards,
        CJ, a woman

      • Tim T: You clearly have bought into the misleading indoctrination of CRT without doing your own research. Cases in point.

        Re: The original Constitution only gave white men “rights.”

        How then do you explain the fact that there were free African American slave owners in the Colonies and, later, in the United States, (who owned, bought, and sold African American slaves) from at least 1654 through to the Civil War? And why do you think those who push CRT wouldn’t include that fact in CRT dogma?

        And, speaking of Native Americans, can you explain why many tribes had slaves from tribes they conquered? Did you know Native American tribes owned African American slaves too.

        And, speaking of women’s suffrage, while women weren’t allowed to vote anywhere in the world until 1893 in New Zealand, and then only in 15 countries before women’s suffrage in the U.S., did you know that women in the U.S. owned slaves too? There are even instances of African American women in the U.S. who owned slaves.

        As you can see, if you choose to look, the developmental history of human culture is complex. But putting that aside, the most important point I can make to you is that the history you’ve been taught couldn’t be further from reality. On the other hand, it’s never too late to learn. I suggest you start by asking for whatever money you and your parents paid for your education be returned to you.

      • Condescend much?

        What about the hundreds of millions of slaves that were SLAVES over the first 100 years of our country’s existence.

        Even if the Native Americans had slaves, they didn’t cross the oceans, murder, rape, and pillage the occupants of that land.
        The FACT is that it was the white man that came over, kicked all the natives of the land whose descendants had been living there for 1,000’s of years.
        The Native Americans didn’t break the numerous treaties that were made, the white man occupier/conqueror did.

        Just because other countries didn’t recognize women as being equals doesn’t let the US off the hook.

        The US Constitution didn’t consider women equals.

        It’s your version of history that has been altered.

        I don’t know about whatever CRT says, I think for myself.

        And I paid for my University myself, back in the day.

        My parents couldn’t afford it.

      • Re: What about the hundreds of millions of slaves that were SLAVES over the first 100 years of our country’s existence.

        Sometimes the truth hurts, Tim T. Especially when you learn you’ve been lied to by someone you trust.

        Hundreds of millions of slaves??? Really?

        Of the 10.7 million African slaves brought to the ‘New World’ (to North, South and Central America) during the 400 years of Atlantic slave trade, fewer than 400,000 came directly to North America. In fact, in 1776, there were more European slaves held by the Barbery Pirates in the Mediterranean than there were African American slaves in the U.S.

        Don’t believe me. Look it up.

        P.S. And again, get your tuition money back.

      • I didn’t reference how many slaves were brought to North America originally.

        I referenced how many lived in the century after the Constitution was put into effect.

        How many slaves do you think lived during the 100 years after the Constitution was written?

        https://www.statista.com/statistics/1010169/black-and-slave-population-us-1790-1880/

        Seems my overestimation was wrong. My bad.

        But it still was WAY too many!

        In the graph in my link, the numbers continually rose after the Constitution was put into effect.

        Did the Constitution give them ANY rights?

        No.

        Nor Native Americans.

        Nor women.

        The “rights” instilled into the Constitution were written for white men.

      • Re: How many slaves do you think lived during the 100 years after the Constitution was written?

        There were approximately 4 million African American slaves in the U.S. at the time of the Emancipation Proclamation.

        Think of it. After thousands of years of institutionalized slavery throughout the world, the first instances being recorded in Mesopotamia 8000 years ago, the U.S. ratified its constitution and fought its most deadly war (the Civil War) to declare slavery illegal only 71 years after the U.S. Constitution was ratified.

        No one is saying slavery hasn’t been an outrageously offensive institution. Our Founders, for the most part, agreed. And that they were able to create a country and establish governance that ended slavery in such a short period of time is, by any measure, a wonderous event.

        Unfortunately, there is much work left to do. There are, reportedly, more slaves in the world today than there were at the beginning of the Civil War. But there’s a reason caravans of people are lining up in Central America to come to the U.S.. And it’s not because we are a racist, white supremacist society.

      • “And that they were able to create a country and establish governance that ended slavery in such a short period of time is, by any measure, a wonderous event.”

        Really?

        Slavery was banned in England in 1807.

        The USA finally got around to it because it was the only way the North could win the war.

        Abraham Lincoln was NOT in favor of freeing the slaves when the Civil War began. (Although morally or by the necessity of the situation his views did change. )
        ———————

        “And it’s not because we are a racist, white supremacist society.“

        I didn’t write that we currently live in a racist, white supremacist society.

        My original point was that the Constitution, when it was written and originally applied, only gave “rights” to white men.

        Which it did.

      • You are wrong again, Tim T.

        In 1803 it was illegal in England to ‘purchase’ slaves directly from the African continent, and it wasn’t until 1833 that England’s Slavery Abolition Law would finally be enacted. The same limitation occurred in the U.S. just five years later in 1808.

        And nevertheless, the practice of slavery remained widespread and legal in the British Caribbean. After all, it was the Brits and the Spanish, the Dutch and the Portuguese, who brought African American slaves to North America in the first place. Is it any wonder, then, that slavery was so contentious in the colonies and the early United States? Under the circumstances it makes it all the more remarkable that our Founders were able to end slavery when they did.

        And one of the reasons slavery ended in Europe was because slave owners were compensated by the government for their loss of property. And when slavery was ‘technically’ ended by the Europeans, it was replaced with ‘forced’ and ‘indentured’ servitude. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

        Are you aware of a slave in Massachusetts named Mum Bett (aka Elizabeth Freeman). She filed a constitutional lawsuit (Brom & Bett v. Ashley) in Massachusetts court and won her freedom in 1780, nine years before the U.S. Constitution was ratified. And the Ashleys weren’t compensated for their loss of property. They were ordered to pay damages and court costs.

        But of course, you don’t know these things. You’re too busy hating yourself to do any real research.

      • Have you heard of Dred Scott?

        Whose case came AFTER the Constitution was ratified?

        You = blah blah blah

        The Constitution as implemented did NOT give rights to slaves, Native Americans, or full rights to women.

        No matter which way you want to apologize for it.

      • You get no argument from me on the Dred Scott case. It is commonly understood as the low point in Supreme Court decisions. That was 1857. Three years later the U.S. fought the deadliest war in its history to correct that wrong, in no small part because of Dred Scott.

        But that doesn’t change any of your misstatements to date, and ‘blah, blah, blah’ isn’t part of my vocabulary, as it is, apparently, part of yours – and understandably so.

        What else do have….

      • I don’t need anything else.

        As this thread will soon enter the dustbin of history as new news comes along, let whoever has read our back and forth decide who offered the better argument.

      • ‘Dustbin’ indeed. It’s little wonder you know so little of our history.

      • For anyone who may read this thread in the future, here’s a little hint:

        The person who makes the least personal attacks when trying to discuss true history, usually understands true history better than the person who has to resort to personal attacks.

        Thanks for the insults H. Jay!

      • Speaking of insults: “You = blah blah blah”

        All I ask is that you think about it.

      • I’m not looking for enemies.

        Especially not during intense times like we live in.

        My reference to “blah blah blah” was towards your arguments that, in my opinion, didn’t address my main point(s) that the Constitution as written and implemented by those who wrote it themselves didn’t recognize the rights of slaves, Native Americans, and full rights to women.

        If my “blah blah blah” bothered you, after you’d already insulted me many times, I’m sorry.

        I say that as nicely as possible without malice.

        I’ll shoulder my share of the responsibility.

      • Re: “My reference to “blah blah blah” was towards your arguments that, in my opinion, didn’t address my main point(s) that the Constitution as written and implemented by those who wrote it themselves didn’t recognize the rights of slaves, Native Americans, and full rights to women.”

        Saying you’re sorry on one hand and continuing with your disinformation on the other doesn’t cut it. I addressed your points. Not only were they unequivocally incorrect in virtually every instance, I didn’t take the time to point out the inaccuracy in all of them.

        Here’s more of your pretense.

        Re: “Even if the Native Americans had slaves, they didn’t cross the oceans, murder, rape, and pillage the occupants of that land.”

        Who do you think you’re kidding? So, it’s okay, in your opinion, that Native Americans had slaves? To assert here that they didn’t ‘murder, rape, and pillage’ is pure delusion. In many cases they practiced ceremonial cannibalism. Meanwhile, you completely disregard the fact that the entire world was a brutal and dangerous place at the time… as if the Founders invented imperialism and exploitation, when, in fact, they established the circumstances that have proven to be, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the most prosperous times for the most people ever experienced on planet earth.

        By the way: the governmental reason Native Americans weren’t protected by the Constitution was because they were deemed to be citizens of independent nations. Native Americans are referenced three times in the Constitution. Once in Article I and once in the fourteenth amendment to exempt them from paying taxes. Article I also regulates trade with ‘Indian Tribes’.

        The relationship between the colonists and Native Americans is just as complicated as the slavery issue, if not more so.

        Did you know, for example, that when the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock, they were met by a Native American (Squanto) who spoke English? Imagine that. Did you know that the Native Americans were as well armed as the new colonists? After all, they’d been trading with each other for 100 years before the Pilgrims arrived.

        Did you know that one of the original recommendations for our Constitutional Republic was put forth by the Iroquois Nation leader Canassatego, at the Treaty of Lancaster in 1744, when he advocated a federal union of the American colonies? Benjamin Franklin was sufficiently impressed with Canassatego’s remarks that he published the account immediately.

        Did you know that, prior to the French and Indian War (i.e. The Seven Years War in Europe), 90% of the Native Americans on the east coast died of diseases carried by European settlers? While deadly disagreements occurred between them from time to time, it was anything but the ‘genocide’ you make it out to be. That period came much later. After the French and Indian War, when various tribes, based on their own economic self-interests, chose sides between the French and the English. It was that war the led to the animosity of which you speak, not to mention the American War for Independence when King George began taxing the colonists to pay for it.

        Re: “In the Constitution itself southern slave owners were given 1/3 of a vote based on each slave, yet the slaves weren’t allowed to vote.”

        Not true… again. First, it was called the three-fifths compromise… not 1/3rd. And it had nothing to do with ‘voting’.

        “The U.S. Constitution does not relegate blacks to “three-fifths of a person” status. Article I, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution states: “Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.” The “other Persons” were slaves.”

        In reality, the slaveholders wanted slaves to be counted as one complete person – so they could control more tax money. Even Fredrick Douglass (you do know who he was, right?) on February 9th, 1849, in a letter to the Abolitionist wrote that, “On a close examination of the Constitution, I am satisfied that if strictly ‘construed according to its reading,’ it is not a pro-slavery instrument.”

        Here’s the deal. Save your apologies. What you do not know (or understand) about human nature or the world order at the time of America’s founding can fill volumes. As the saying goes – ‘You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.”

        I (we) know what you think. No response is required on your part. But, again, all I ask is that you think about our history more carefully before you make your judgments.

      • Did the Constitution recognize that “all men are created equal”? (Including Slaves, Native Americans, and women.)

        Yes or no answer please.

        Not some apologist politician like non answer that avoids the question.

      • The Declaration of Independence claimed “All men are created equal.”

        I’m guessing even some of the few blacks who could read or heard about the Declaration of Independence could even potentially find hope in it.

        Although a historian couldn’t tell that by comparing the numbers of blacks who joined the British in the Revolutionary War compared to the numbers of those who fought for their colonist slave owners.
        By looking at those numbers it seems the slaves understood who they would have a better future under.

        In the original Constitution pre any amendments, slaves were by then valued at 3/5 a vote. FOR THEIR OWNERS.

        Women weren’t even considered equal in the Declaration of Independence, let alone the original Constitution.
        In 1776, pre-Constitution, women could vote in New Jersey, but in 1807 AFTER the Constitution was written, and then implemented by the fallible Founding Fathers, women’s right to vote was taken away and reverted to only allowing white men to vote.

        Women wouldn’t get the universal right to vote back until 1920!

        What visionaries the Founding Father’s must have been!

        You are correct that Native Americans weren’t considered citizens of the USA, and that the East Coast Native American tribes were devastated by disease.

        But AFTER the Constitution was written, for the next 100+ years, their nations and land were forcibly conquered, genocided depending on tribe, and forced into tiny portions of mostly useless land that can’t even grow food.

        The USA has been a conquering nation since the Constitution was enacted.

        The USA is still insanely trying to conquer the world with 800 military bases around the world.

        For our freedom, I guess.

        The Constitution itself was forced into place by a few white, wealthy men, to replace the Articles of Confederation, in which the power of a central government was severely limited.

        (One thing they wanted was a national army to put down slave and poor white farmer rebellions such as the Shaw Rebellion.)

        Some of our heroes held up as man-gods called the Founding Fathers wanted the Articles of Confederation to be replaced so a new stronger Federal government could start embarking on it’s “Manifest Destiny”.

        First as much land in North America.

        Then the resources and riches of the rest of the world.

        That’s where we’re at now.
        —————————

        Any of the good, positive things from the Constitution now mean almost nothing in reality to the way things actually work.

        They arguably never did.

        The result of the US Constitution has been war, slavery, murder, rape, and genocide.

        From 1787 up until now.

        Instead of in “foreign” Native American lands, US soldiers are now all over the world in foreign lands dropping bombs on people who have never heard of the Constitution.

        ——————————-

        Don’t shoot the messenger.

        I didn’t do it.

      • Dear H, Jay Eshelman,

        Thank you for ALL of your time and efforts trying to break through the hardheartedness, It’s unfortunate, but when a person is a pessimist and repeats the same point over and over and over only “seeing the negative,” it’s a pride issue making the person incapable of changing the way they “see.”

        Thank you for sharing history! With ALL It’s ups and downs and flaws and mistakes, we are so fortunate to live in the our Constitutional Republic of the United States of America. There are so many good things our Country and It’s People have done for mankind and Freedom. We owe so much to All who made the ultimate sacrifice, loosing their lives while seeking to do good.

        A 98 year old little Polish lady reminded me recently of one instance. She said, “I would be dead along with many, many others, and our families would not exist, if the Americans hadn’t come to save us.”

        Thankfulness and Gratitude! It was beautiful to hear!

        Merry Christmas!!

      • “It’s a pride issue”, huh?

        Thanks for judging me from behind the wall of all your false beliefs.

        Can’t refute what another says, tear down the individual.

        He or she must be a “hard hearted” “sinner” whose pride won’t let him/her see.

        I guess that’s better than the old way(s) of dealing with things.

        Like all the burnings of “witches” that took place in the history of our country. (By false “believers”, I think, right? Do you still believe they were witches, VTBeliever?)

        Or the lynchings that took place for well over a century.

        That’s how the US people took care of things for centuries.

        But what about the wonderful Constitutional government?

        The US is the only country that has ever used nuclear bombs to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, women, and children. (Yes I know the revisionist “we had to do it to save American lives” lie that has become part of revisionist history.)

        And the US has threatened to use nukes MANY times after.

        Such a great history this country has!!

        —————-

        FYI, I’m specifically focusing on the negative to bring balance to the picture.

      • Re: “Did the Constitution recognize that “all men are created equal”? (Including Slaves, Native Americans, and women.) Yes or no answer please.”

        Ah, the proverbial (and adolescent) false dichotomy. Two can play that game.

        Please clarify what is meant by ‘created equal’.

        P.S. Keep in mind that it was the Declaration of Independence that declared that “All men are created Equal”. Not the U.S. Constitution.

        Next question.

      • Whatever you want to define “created equal”, were all human beings regardless of race, color, or creed TREATED as equals under the Constitution of the United States in 1787?

      • So much to unpack in your manifesto, disagree with many (not all) of its assertions as I do.

        Suffice it to say… no one and no country is perfect. Which, again, is an understanding that explains why so many people around the world want to be here in the U.S… and why those who disagree are free to lobby for their points of view or leave anytime they choose to do so – a privilege unequaled on our planet.

      • The USA has ravaged the third world.

        Overthrew their democratically elected governments using the military industrial complex supplying arms and training foreigners in their own lands. (Most recent being Ukraine.)

        With the help of our out of control secret services like the CIA.

        In the name of “democracy”.

        Then puppets were installed in the countries where the democratically elected leaders were overthrown that would be friendly to the US’s goals.
        One’s that sold all their countries assets to the US corporate oligarchy.

        Leaving the people in those countries with nothing.

        Taking the wealth of their natural resources and more and bringing them into the US crony finance capitalist corporate oligarchy’s stock market profits.

        Of course they want to come to the US, they’re starving in the impoverished crime ridden wasteland the US leaves in their wake.

        Like Afghanistan, most recently.
        ——————

        Free to go?

        The USA will take 25% of your accumulated wealth on your way out the door.

        ——————

        It’s not even free to stay, with punishing taxes everywhere an American looks.

        And more to come because now on top of the USA’s history in other categories, it is now the largest debtor nation in the history of the world.

        American citizens are and will ultimately pay for the Trillions upon Trillions (with capital T’s) of funny money green pieces of paper that have been and will continue to be spent.

        The system we have now, the US prints money out of thin air and buys stuff from the rest of the world.

        The rest of the world takes those dollars and buys our Treasuries which are IOU’s.

        The US biggest export is green pieces of paper. (Actually digits on a screen nowadays.)

        But I digress.
        ———————-

        The US Constitution didn’t stop all of this from happening.

        Would it if applied?

        Nobody will ever really know now, will they.

      • I’d like to add one more thing in response to “free to lobby for their point of view.”

        I’m sure you have noticed, but I’d like to point out the crazy amount of censoring that the corporate media oligarchy has brought into effect in our current times.

        Can anyone truly say we live in a free country anymore?

        Did our forefather’s?
        ————————

        I don’t “hate” the USA.

        I don’t have the pride for it that I may have once had because of false beliefs about the true history of the US.

        I was taught the victor’s white male version “City on the Hill” apologetic rewrite.

        I’ve since learned it wasn’t like I was taught in school.

        ————————-

        And it isn’t like most people think it is now.

        The USA is in big time financial trouble caused by the finance capitalist Wall Street/K Street oligarchy.

        That’s why the powers that be are banging the wardrums, because there is no way out of the mess that has been created by generations of inept government leaders, starting back at the time of the Constitution.

        Hopefully “they” don’t start WWIII.

        ————————-

        I, like you, didn’t commit the travesties that our government did in the past.

        I, like you, didn’t create the financial mess our country is in now.

        But it’s me and you gonna pay.

      • This rebuttal is addressed to Tim T.

        “It’s a pride issue”, huh?
        – Yea. So what?

        Thanks for judging me from behind the wall of all your false beliefs.
        – No, we’re judging you from behind the wall of your misleading statements.

        Can’t refute what another says, tear down the individual.
        – I’ve refuted virtually everything you’ve written so far with facts.

        He or she must be a “hard hearted” “sinner” whose pride won’t let him/her see.
        – Wait a minute. What happened to the ‘tear down the individual’ characterization? Do you
        have a mirror handy?

        I guess that’s better than the old way(s) of dealing with things.
        – ?????

        Like all the burnings of “witches” that took place in the history of our country. (By false “believers”, I think, right? Do you still believe they were witches, VTBeliever?)
        – Oh, so now the U.S. Constitution condones the burning of witches?

        Or the lynchings that took place for well over a century.
        – Oh, so now the U.S. Constitution condones lynching?

        That’s how the US people took care of things for centuries.
        – All U.S. people? As a US ‘person’, is that the way you take care of things?

        But what about the wonderful Constitutional government?
        – What about it?

        The US is the only country that has ever used nuclear bombs to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, women, and children. (Yes I know the revisionist “we had to do it to save American lives” lie that has become part of revisionist history.)
        – Yes, it did. But only after it was attacked by the Japanese.

        And the US has threatened to use nukes MANY times after.
        – Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) – yes. And, in case you haven’t noticed, the strategy
        has worked. Since 1945 no nuclear weapon has been used in warfare.

        Such a great history this country has!!
        – I agree.

        Bring it on Mr. T. Next point/question.

      • Tim’s rebuttals to H. Jay are preceded by a *

        This rebuttal is addressed to Tim T. (H. Jay’s rebuttals are the one’s preceded by a – )

        Tim’s original writing has nothing preceding it, starting at Thanks:

        “It’s a pride issue”, huh?
        – Yea. So what?

        Thanks for judging me from behind the wall of all your false beliefs.
        – No, we’re judging you from behind the wall of your misleading statements.
        * So you’re judging me too, now, eh? You do seem quite judgmental.

        Can’t refute what another says, tear down the individual.
        – I’ve refuted virtually everything you’ve written so far with facts.
        * You THINK you’ve refuted virtually everything I’ve written. But I and possibly others who read our exchanges might THINK your view is a little limited towards the spectrum of revisionist apologetic history that ignores or explains away apologetically most of the REAL BAD things that the USA has done in the past. AND IS STILL DOING.

        – All U.S. people? As a US ‘person’, is that the way you take care of things?
        * In my haste I painted too broad a brush of course. Most of the Americans in history were just victims of the white male power hungry greedy politicians and the wealthy psychopaths that surround them.

        But what about the wonderful Constitutional government?
        – What about it?
        * The wonderful Constitution was the instrument that has been used in the last 245 years to lead the USA into it’s super imperialist position in the world that is as I’m writing coming crashing to it’s end.
        This is the early stages.
        Just look at our country’s finances, it’s simply unsustainable.

        The question now is if our psychopathic US leaders will lead us into WWIII.
        We’ll be lucky if we can get into another conventional war without triggering WWIII.
        But the war games have to go on or the US goes broke. One thing we still make in the USA is bombs, planes, and ships and our economy largely depends on it.

        Under the Constitution we have always been and are a warrior nation whose wealth has come from first stealing other’s lands as with the Native Americans and Mexico, moving on using modern technology to be the biggest war machine the world has ever seen.

        With 800 bases around the world in over 80 nations.

        Dropping bombs on Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and more just in the last decade.

        For their freedom? Or is it for money and power?

        The US is the only country that has ever used nuclear bombs to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, women, and children. (Yes I know the revisionist “we had to do it to save American lives” lie that has become part of revisionist history.)
        – Yes, it did. But only after it was attacked by the Japanese.

        And the US has threatened to use nukes MANY times after.
        – Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) – yes. And, in case you haven’t noticed, the strategy
        has worked. Since 1945 no nuclear weapon has been used in warfare.
        * IF the USA didn’t drop the nukes killing hundreds of thousands of innocent children and citizens that had no choice as to whether they were part of a war or not, just like the people of the USA don’t really have a choice, perhaps the world would have…ZERO nuclear bombs that have been used on innocent populations.

        Japan was already on it’s knees and had lost the war by the time the cowardly President with a small man complex whose Mom told him he should have been a girl Truman.

        The only surrender condition the Japanese wouldn’t surrender to was the condition to remove the Emperor of Japan.
        And the Japanese still wouldn’t accept that condition after the nukes.

        The nukes ordered to be dropped by Harry Truman were dropped in COMPLETE waste!

        The nukes also damaged the atmosphere, along with further nuclear tests as nations around the world rushed to protect themselves from the country with the mad leader who will drop nukes.
        And of course the US had to stay on top, developing the hydrogen bomb that is 1,000 times more powerful.

        Hopefully we’re not unlucky enough to again have a mad leader who is willing to stand on the Constitution while taking us into WWIII.

        Such a great history this country has!!
        – I agree.
        * Me, too.

        -Bring it on Mr. T. Next point/question.
        *Thank you for continuing to prod me to shine light on the hidden underbelly of our nation’s history and present.
        I have no more questions for you.

      • Rebuttal to Mr. T’s rebuttals to H. Jay are preceded by a *

        * So you’re judging me too, now, eh? You do seem quite judgmental.

        – Yes, I said I was judging you, didn’t I?

        * You THINK you’ve refuted virtually everything I’ve written. But I and possibly others who read our exchanges might THINK your view is a little limited towards the spectrum of revisionist apologetic history that ignores or explains away apologetically most of the REAL BAD things that the USA has done in the past. AND IS STILL DOING.

        – Facts, Mr. T. If you can demonstrate something I’ve said that’s untrue, please do. It’s not what you THINK. It’s what you KNOW. I have never said that people in the U.S. have never done ‘REAL BAD things’.

        * In my haste I painted too broad a brush of course. Most of the Americans in history were just victims of the white male power hungry greedy politicians and the wealthy psychopaths that surround them.

        – Yes, you did. And often. And you continue to do so. For one thing, ‘Most Americans in history’ haven’t been victims.

        * The wonderful Constitution was the instrument that has been used in the last 245 years to lead the USA into it’s super imperialist position in the world that is as I’m writing coming crashing to it’s end. This is the early stages. Just look at our country’s finances, it’s simply unsustainable.

        – The United States has been the least ‘imperialistic’ super-power in history (and I invite your inexorable examples to the contrary). Compare the U.S. to the Romans, to Great Britain, France, and Spanish colonization around the world. Compare it to Russia in the 20th century, and its ‘iron curtain’ around east Europeans. And compare it to China and its treatment of Tibet, Hong Kong, the Uighurs, and (on the horizon) Taiwan.
        – That U.S. financial policy is on the skids, you’ll have no argument from me. But that’s of our own doing. There’s nothing in the Constitution that makes stupidity illegal.

        * IF the USA didn’t drop the nukes killing hundreds of thousands of innocent children and citizens that had no choice as to whether they were part of a war or not, just like the people of the USA don’t really have a choice, perhaps the world would have…ZERO nuclear bombs that have been used on innocent populations.

        – Your ignorance of history is astounding. At the end of WWII, the Nazis were within months of having their own nuclear bomb. And with the Nazi V2 rockets launched against Britain at wars-end do you honestly believe the Nazis would have exercised any restraint in their attempt to conquer Europe? Do you know what the Nazis did at Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Dachau and dozens of other concentration camps? Do you know what the Russians did at Babi Yar? Do you know what the Japanese did at Zhejiang-Jiangxi in China, in Burma, and in Manilla?
        – Even before the U.S. entered WWII, Russia was developing its own nuclear weapons. You should thank your lucky stars that the U.S. figured it out first. Lord only knows what might have happened. You certainly don’t know.

        * The nukes ordered to be dropped by Harry Truman were dropped in COMPLETE waste!

        – Did you know anyone who fought in WWII? My father and my uncles, who served in WWII, would beg to differ with you if they were still alive. My father was a Navy fighter pilot in WWII, one of my uncles was in the D-Day invasion, two of my uncles flew B-17s over Italy and Germany, one of my uncles was a Marine, wounded at Guadalcanal. And I had the privilege to know them and listen to their stories. Your diatribe reflects your ignorance.
        – It is true that Japan was more concerned with Russia establishing a 2nd front after the fall of Germany and that it preferred to surrender to the U.S.. And there are those who surmise that Japan’s surrender was imminent in any case. However, even Hirohito later acknowledged that the A-bombs advanced Japan’s surrender.
        – But that estimates of allied casualties may or may not have been exaggerated in Truman’s and Stimson’s decision making is easy for those of us who never faced the prospect of the fight to criticize. Again, no one (especially you) is perfect. And I thank my lucky stars to this day that the U.S. did what it did. Otherwise, the likelihood of my being here would have been significantly diminished.
        – In the final analysis, it was Japan that executed the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941. Even while its diplomates were negotiating a peace treaty with the U.S. in Washington D.C.. Sometimes poor judgments have significant consequences. The fact of the matter (facts you continue to ignore) is that the U.S. almost singlehandedly won WWII after being attacked. Nuclear weapons have never been used in war since then. And thank God for that.

        * I have no more questions for you.

        – I’ll bet.

      • You somehow sit up on your high horse using your intellect thinking somehow you’re proving anything I’ve been sharing wrong.

        I’ve just been sharing true history.

        You’ve been sharing complementary history sometimes, and at other times the revisionist history written my the white male victors of this country’s past.

        My Grandfather was in Normandy in WWII. (I soaked in all his stories.)

        But that doesn’t change things like your revisionist historical statement:

        “The fact of the matter (facts you continue to ignore) is that the U.S. almost singlehandedly won WWII after being attacked.”

        This is revisionist history at it’s finest. You have your “facts” wrong.

        The Russians lost 25 million people playing the strongly arguable biggest role in Hitler’s defeat.
        The US, about 420,000.

        The US entered the war late, and played a role in what was already looking like the inevitable end, but it did not “almost singlehandedly” win WWII.

        As you admit yourself Japan was terrified of the Russians advancing from the West.

        You have your learned revisionist apologetic “facts”, but your understanding is lacking.

        And you have a big ego.

        Judge not lest ye be judged.

      • Re: “Thinking anything you’ve been sharing wrong”???

        For starters. You were wrong about what the Constitution allows. You were wrong about Native American governance and what killed most of them. You were wrong about how many slaves there were in the U.S. You were wrong about the 3/5ths Compromise. You were wrong about U.S. exclusivity in the development of the atomic bomb. You were wrong about why Japan surrendered in WWII.

        I agree, however, that even for me to say that the U.S. ‘almost singlehandedly’ won WWII is an overstatement. My apologies to the Russians, the Brits, the French and its underground, the Poles, and the Canadians and Australians.

        But it was the U.S., for the most part, that carried on the two-front war in Europe and Africa and in the Pacific theater. It was primarily the U.S. that armed Britain early on. And it was the U.S. entry into the war, only a year and a half after Germany invaded Poland, and less than six months after Russia was attacked, that forced Germany to over-extend itself, while, at the same time, rebuilding its Pacific fleet and taking on Japan.

        Russia, after all, was neutral in 1939 and had a ten-year non-aggression pact with Germany. Fool me once, as they say. The U.S., on the other hand, passed the Lend-Lease Act in 1939 to financially support a bankrupt England.

        Nonetheless, with the exception of the ‘‘almost singlehandedly’ remark, my assessment of history is anything but revisionist. These are facts, especially when compared with your impressions. Am I judgmental? You bet. Compared with any of the other major world powers throughout history, none have acted more admirably than the U.S..

        And while the U.S. Constitution remains, in my humble opinion, the most elegant form of governance contrived by modern humans, that doesn’t mean its citizens are perfect. But show me another country that is perfect. As I said before, the Constitution doesn’t make stupidity illegal.

        Is the U.S. the ogre you make it out to be? Hardly. You and I are both lucky to be here. And I hope you thanked your grandfather.

      • The following is H. Jay’s last post with my rebuttal in the paragraphs between his paragraphs marked at the start with *

        For starters. You were wrong about what the Constitution allows. You were wrong about Native American governance and what killed most of them. You were wrong about how many slaves there were in the U.S. You were wrong about the 3/5ths Compromise. You were wrong about U.S. exclusivity in the development of the atomic bomb. You were wrong about why Japan surrendered in WWII.

        *I was wrong about what the Constitution allows? Huh?
        *I wasn’t wrong about Native American governance or what killed most of them.
        You pointed out that 90% of the Native Americans on the East Coast died of an epidemic, but if I remember correctly that happened pre-Constitution.
        After the Constitution came into effect, the newly formed Federal Army would go on to massacre, rape, and torture the Native Americans.
        Stealing their land and forcing them onto reservations.
        I wasn’t wrong on that.
        *I wrongly claimed there were hundreds of millions of slaves. Your “correction” cited that about 400,000 or so were originally brought over to the US. And that there were 4 million when slavery was abolished. This doesn’t take into consideration all the millions who lived in between. The number is certainly in the tens of millions and not 4 million total.
        *I was wrong about the 3/5ths, and admitted it. I mistakenly thought the MOSTLY (by a long shot) white male Christian Slave owners received only 1/3 of a vote for each slave.
        But that didn’t make me wrong when I shared the true history that African Americans received no recognition as humans under the pre-amendments Constitution.
        *Straw man- I never said the US exclusively was developing the bomb. I said that the US used it causing a mad scramble for other countries to develop from scratch or continue to develop their own nukes to protect themselves from the crazy Yanks with a President whose Mom (repeatedly) told him he should have been a girl.
        *I wasn’t wrong about why they surrendered. Japan was already defeated and willing to surrender as long as they could keep their Emperor. And they kept their Emperor after the bombs killed hundreds upon hundreds of innocent human beings. (Which you tried to apologize for by saying the deaths were overestimated.
        One of the FACTS that I pointed out was that the US is the only country in the world to have used nukes. Another fact is that the US on numerous occasions threatened to use them again, against countries that had no nukes.

        *You wrongly claim I’m wrong.

        I agree, however, that even for me to say that the U.S. ‘almost singlehandedly’ won WWII is an overstatement. My apologies to the Russians, the Brits, the French and its underground, the Poles, and the Canadians and Australians.

        *Not just an overstatement, wrong.

        But it was the U.S., for the most part, that carried on the two-front war in Europe and Africa and in the Pacific theater. It was primarily the U.S. that armed Britain early on. And it was the U.S. entry into the war, only a year and a half after Germany invaded Poland, and less than six months after Russia was attacked, that forced Germany to over-extend itself, while, at the same time, rebuilding its Pacific fleet and taking on Japan.

        *Soviet Union 25 million deaths, US about 420,000. Germany broke itself against Russia, similar to Napoleon. The Soviet Union took Berlin, the US and British weren’t involved.

        Russia, after all, was neutral in 1939 and had a ten-year non-aggression pact with Germany. Fool me once, as they say. The U.S., on the other hand, passed the Lend-Lease Act in 1939 to financially support a bankrupt England.

        * The US leant $$ for other countries to buy their bombs with, what a surprise.
        As to the ten-year non aggression pact, the US wasn’t at war with them for those ten years either.

        Nonetheless, with the exception of the ‘‘almost singlehandedly’ remark, my assessment of history is anything but revisionist. These are facts, especially when compared with your impressions. Am I judgmental? You bet. Compared with any of the other major world powers throughout history, none have acted more admirably than the U.S..

        *To start, my stance is that governments for all the history of man in all nations have not been put into place for the good of “the people.” And yet, I acknowledge the need for government, but I digress.

        *Since the Constitution’s inception, the USA has acted no more admirably than any of the other unadmirable governments of the world.
        Shortly after it’s inception, the newly formed US Federal Army turned it’s might on the Native American tribes west of the Appalachians.
        For 100 years or so this Federal Army, (which is what it was called until after the Civil War), went to war with indigenous tribes that resided in their own nation’s lands.
        It was genocidal, NOT admiral, no matter which way one wants to try to apologize for it.

        *Then their’s the slaves, Jim Crow laws, ghettos, etc.
        NOT admirable. (Even with apologetic interpretations of history.)

        And while the U.S. Constitution remains, in my humble opinion, the most elegant form of governance contrived by modern humans, that doesn’t mean its citizens are perfect. But show me another country that is perfect. As I said before, the Constitution doesn’t make stupidity illegal.

        Is the U.S. the ogre you make it out to be? Hardly. You and I are both lucky to be here. And I hope you thanked your grandfather.

        *Is the U.S. the ogre I make it out to be? Well, it definitely WAS the ogre I have made it out to be. FACTUALLY.

        *The US today:
        The US has limited free speech, I don’t think anyone would argue that.
        They may say we need to limit but no honest person would say the US has free speech.

        No free press, look at Julian Assange’s case for confirmation.

        The US is spending well over $700 Billion again this year on their military industrial complex.

        The largest wealth transfer in the history of the world took place in 2020.
        The richest of the rich got immensely richer at a scale never seen before in history.

        The US has handled the pandemic worse than any other country in the world, and 2 years into it we’re no closer than day one to ending the pandemic.

        Our pols are creating division everywhere over everything.

        We live in the divided states of the USA.

        I could go on and on.

        It’s looking pretty ogrish to me.

      • Dear Tim T.,

        I’m sincerely concerned about you. The anger, bitterness, pain and resentment that is revealed in your words is disturbing. Will can any of us do to help you?

      • It’s not me that needs help, it’s our country and planet.

        It’s not my anger, bitterness, pain, and resentment that you feel.

        There’s no way to share the truth of our country’s past without it cutting like a knife.
        —————-

        I said before “Don’t blame the messenger. I didn’t do it.”

        I should add, don’t worry about the messenger.

        I know it’s easier to put focus on the messenger rather than the message, especially when the FACTS are not pleasant to look at.

        —————

        My advice is to worry more about what I shared than me.

  9. Why is this garbage on this site? Seriously?

    The 800,000 number is a flat out lie and based on the PCR tests that product 95% false positives. The average age of death is basically the same as the average American lifespan.

    Guy…can we please keep junk like this off the site? This isn’t digger or 7 days.

    • On second thought I’ll rescind my previous comment about why this is on this site. I guess it’s good because it gives us a chance to educate Vermonters about the key element of how this scam has been perpetuated, namely the aforementioned ‘PCR’ test.

      This stuff gets me so riled up that I’ll write a beginners guide to what Covid cases and deaths really are and how they’re craftily compiled by those who wish to control us. It’ll be on your desk in the next few weeks Guy.

      Grrrrrr……….

    • What is your name explanation of the excess deaths tally?

      Excess deaths compared to what would be expected (based on trend lines from the previous 5 years) are happening ALL OVER THE WORLD.

      Is the whole world in on it?

      Is Russia in on it while the USA tries to start WWIII against them? (Because they have the excess death problem, too.)

      Iran? (Because they have a Covid and excess death problem, also.)
      —————-

      https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

  10. There isn’t any excess mortality Tim.

    The proof is in the numbers coming out of our States numbers.

    Please ask digger to restore their comments section so you’ll have a happy home.

    Don’t forget your booster either!

    • No excess deaths?

      What’s it like living in the land of Denial?

      Just saying their are no excess deaths over the past 2 years is IGNORE-ance of reality.

      https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

      The truth hurts.

      I don’t wish reality to be the way it is.

      I’m just not going to ignore reality and live in a fantasyland of denial, unlike most, it seems.

  11. It now appears to be more important than ever to start getting the data of hospitalizations and deaths of the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts by age group. This latest report shows a 700% increase in the likelihood that an unvaccinated person will die of Covid, while the likelihood of death for a vaccinated person declined 22% – between the two weeks ending December 1st and the two weeks ending December 15th. According to these reports over the last three months, this abrupt differential is on the verge of being statistically impossible.
    https://vtdigger.org/coronavirus/#covid-breakthrough

    Keep in mind that more than 60% of the Covid deaths in Vermont over the last three months have been vaccinated people…. until this last 2 week period. Is this an anomaly? Is the data being collected differently? Did that many unvaccinated people die over the last two weeks compared to the previous two weeks? … the previous 3 months?

    The number of cases is subterfuge. How many people, for example, have been infected more than once?

    Again, it’s more important than ever that we see:
    Vaccinated Hospitalizations per capita by age group
    Unvaccinated Hospitalizations per capita by age group
    Vaccinated Deaths per capita by age group
    Unvaccinated Deaths per capita by age group